Episode 4 — Cat Polston: Housing Justice, Chronic Illness, and Community Care
In this episode Charlie talks with Cat Polston, a disabled public servant and former social worker, about housing, policy, and what it means to survive long enough to imagine stability. Cat shares her journey from experiencing housing instability and navigating chronic illness to working inside government systems to make programs more accessible, humane, and grounded in real community needs. They also discuss the tension between public systems and mutual aid, the myth of independence under capitalism, and why interdependence is not a fallback but a foundation. The conversation moves through survival, stability, and what it looks like to care for community both within and beyond institutional systems.
Watch the full episode: https://youtu.be/2xDJuH8fmDk
Topics we discuss:
Housing as a human right
Chronic illness and survival mode
How policy shapes daily life
Disability and public service
Mutual aid vs. public systems
Interdependence and community care
Burnout, self-care, and labor under capitalism
Liberatory disabled futures
Episode 4 Transcript:
Charlie Moses: Hey everyone, I'm Charlie Moses, I'm the founder of Sick Futures Collective and the host of this podcast, The Future is Sick. Today I'm in conversation with someone who is just an absolute joy and also a badass, and who is also part of our Sick Futures world, and that is Kat Polston.
Kat is a disabled public servant and a former social worker who is dedicated to advancing housing stability, equity, and community well-being. All of these many things that we so desperately need. Her decade in social work continues to inform her current work in public administration, and she focuses there on making government programs more accessible, more transparent, more humane -- all of these other many things that we so desperately need. And so, I am just honored to have her here today, so… Hi, Cat! Welcome!
Cat Polston: Thank you so much for having me.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, thank you so much for being here, and for being down to do this. I know that it can be nerve-wracking and intimidating to come onto a… come onto any old show.
Well, the first question that I wanted to ask you, just to kind of get into it, like, straight out of the gate, is, you know, what was the very, very first thing you encountered that really started you on this journey of chronic illness and or disability. Like, where was that first little moment, even if you didn't realize it was that first moment when it happened?
Cat Polston: Oh, wow, that's a really good question. I think probably from my own experience, I was sick, as a teenager, and I would get sick pretty often, but I would always, like, dismiss it, and I was just, like, you know, throwing up every day, and I was like, that's just something quirky about me, I just throw up randomly.
I think, with that, I, you know, started trying, like, talking to other folks, and then being like, that's not actually normal, like, you're not supposed to do that. And then started, you know, really, when I hit adulthood, went into trying to find answers. I was unsheltered as a youth, when I was, like, 18, 19, kind of into my 20s.
And, so, you know, really not focusing on myself or my health, just kind of focusing on, you know, hanging out with friends, or finding a place to sleep, or, you know, finding a place to hang out. And so, for me, like, you know, I really ignored a lot of the symptoms I was having, you know, through that. And it wasn't until I was 25 that I got health insurance, and I started exploring, because everything was just getting worse and worse and worse, kind of to the point that it wasn't really ignorable anymore. And thankfully, my partner was, like, really supportive, and he was like, yeah, you need to, like, figure out what's wrong.
So, went to get a colonoscopy, ended up having Crohn's disease. It was, like, a click moment, like, oh my gosh, so this is what's been, like, ailing me this whole time. This was not just quirkiness or, like… you know, it's, like, a lot of blaming myself, like, oh, it must have been something I ate, or, you know, it's been so long since I've eaten something, maybe it was just, like, my body couldn't handle it, or, you know, it wasn't, like, healthy, or, you know, just anything like that. So, I felt like I finally had answers, but so with that, I was… I really recognized, a lot of the judgment and a lot of the, assumptions, you know, that people have in the community, like, about chronic illness, you know? So, when I would get ill and stuff, it would be, like, what did you eat? You know, the things that I would always punish myself with, like people would then question me, like, and, you know, the, oh, have you ever heard of trying this? Like, have you ever tried this supplement? Or have you tried this? You know, and so with that, I was, like, realizing that there was a lot of, misinformation. Just like, in… in the world, just about what illness looks like, and what healing looks like, and you know, in my work as a social worker, you know, meeting other clients that also had illnesses that didn't have access to also finding out what was happening with them, really motivated me to, like, try to break down those barriers so that folks could access care and could find out what was happening with them, just like much how I did, you know, coming from an unstable environment into, like, you know, trying to help have health and healing, while also still struggling with, like, trauma and, like, life, and all of that. So, it's been… it's been wild. Yeah, but…
Charlie Moses: Truly.
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: Gosh. Yeah, I mean, it just… it has me thinking about… you know, trying to explain to someone, like why you weren't in a place where you could just be, like, fully focused on your health, and that to people who aren't in, like, a constant fight-or-flight state that it's like trying to explain that wasn't really on my mind, like, wasn't top of my mind, to be like, “I should figure out how to get to a doctor. It's really, like, I need to figure out if I'm gonna be able to sleep somewhere tonight, or, like, how to make the abuse stop, or…
Cat Polston: Yes.
Charlie Moses: like, all of the many other things that typically need to get contained and quieted down before we even feel safe enough to think about anything else.
Cat Polston: Yeah. Really, that survival mode is just… it's kind of incredible, the self-preservation that your body does and your mind does to just be like, everything's fine! Just so you can continue surviving, and then when you do take that pause, when you do take that moment, or when you do find stability, and you start, like, oftentimes I find that people get more ill, and they get sicker, because then finally they're in a place where they can genuinely rest, and so things that they wouldn't have necessarily noticed, they're noticing, because of coming out of that survival instinct. Yeah, so, and that's definitely what happened to me, like, once when I started getting more stable I started getting more sick, and I was just like, this is so weird, like, you know? But it was, like, my body was screaming, like, you know, hey, it's time, you know? But then also being young and not even knowing how to access care, or where to access care, you know, like… figuring out navigating the healthcare system is just such a nightmare. Like, I go to my regular doctor, my regular doctor says, you need a specialist. The specialist is like, you know, I need to start doing tests, you know, then you're having to call off work so that you can take these tests, you know? It's just… it's too much, and a lot of people give up in that process, and they think it would be easier to just continue to live ill than actually seeking an answer.
Charlie Moses: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it really is, like, for those who didn't grow up with some kind of example of, like, here's how you find healthcare, here's how you get established with healthcare, or here's the benefit of having an established primary care physician, all of these things, you don't know, and then when you're out in the world and trying to survive as a youth, and you're like, I don't even… why would I spend extra money on something that I don't need? Or, like, I don't even know how to get it, if I could. Like, where do I even start?
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, what… what was the catalyst, or kind of how did you initially start getting looped into, like, how to get health insurance, or even how to use it, or if you had it, like, how to establish a doctor, all of these things, because it is such a mystifying system if you've never been involved in it.
Cat Polston: Yeah, I mean, finally having a stable job and, like, a career. Like, my first job in social work, was the first time that I had health insurance, which even just opened that door for me. You know, and then, like, working… I mean, like, thankfully, I was a medical assistant first, so I did start learning the healthcare system, from that side, but yeah, it really wasn't until I got into social work that I had solid health insurance. When you're a medical assistant, they kind of don't tell you this, they don't give you health insurance, they just say, you get to see our doctors, like, when they have time for you. So I was just, like, being treated by the doctors that I was working for for a long time, but that was, like, very basic sick visits, you know, you need antibiotics so that you can continue working. But so having actual health insurance and being able to actually have a doctor outside of the ones I was working for, really changed things for me. But really, like, for me, and what happened with my illness was that I got so sick, I couldn't eat anything. I wasn't holding anything down. I wasn't able to go one day with anything in my stomach, and so by the time I ended up going to a primary care physician, and they referred me to the gastroenterologist, like… you know, I've always been overweight, I've always been a big girl, but I lost, like, 30 pounds within a few months, and so it was unintentional weight loss in that, like, I was only drinking protein shakes and the Bolthouse, like, green juices and stuff.
Charlie Moses: Yes.
Cat Polston: And, even that, I mean, I wasn't holding it down, but it was, like, I was just trying to get liquid in that had some kind of nutrients, and I got to the point where I was like, wow, I can't keep living like this. Like, that was the first time that I was like, oh man, I might die from this? Like, something's really bad. And so, it was steroids and hospital visits later to get me stabilized, then they were like, okay, now formalized colonoscopy than diagnosis, and but even through that process was just… everything was just kind of so shocking, like, through the whole thing. Like, it was not something I was really prepared for, and I didn't think that it was going to be, like, a chronic illness or Crohn's disease. I thought that there might just be something, like, you know, happening, like a virus or whatever, and that's kind of how they started me off, too, was like, you might have H. pylori, let's have you do a breath test. You know, so I went through all of these other tests just for nothing, you know, just for it to be… but so I was like, I was convinced that it was something short-term. So then having this long-term kind of diagnosis, that was really, like… the life kind of altering -- realizing denial, very much a grieving process, that I was like, no, I don't have that, and then, you know, accepting it.
But then being upset, like, I had been told my… we had just gotten married, my husband and I, and I was just like, if you need to divorce me, like, I understand. And he was like, absolutely not, like, sickness and health, right? Because really what kicked off getting so ill was on our honeymoon, which was really sad, but, you know, I went to the hospital after that, you know, he's been such a rock and so supportive through every… all of my illnesses. Yeah, because that was the first one, but I've been diagnosed with other things, and it's always kind of like, one of those things, when you do start exploring one aspect of your health, that other aspects of your health kind of start also unwinding, that you're realizing, oh, well, that's connected to this, and this is connected to that, and that's why this hurts, and that's why, you know… yeah, so, definitely, definitely not expected.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, I mean, gosh, that… the shame and guilt of having a disability or chronic illness is… it's exhausting. It's like we know it now, and we know when it kind of rears its head, and we can be like, go away. Like, just leave us alone. But it comes up in so many different ways, and it's so frustrating to see the social pressure of this definition of disability as dependency, and then dependency is a social failure, and then us embodying that, and being like, oh my god, you're gonna leave, I'm a burden, it's gonna be too much to deal with, yadda yadda yadda, all of the things that spin through our minds, because they've been depicted in so many, many different ways throughout our lives and throughout society. And then the other one, the frustrating one, is that unintentional weight loss is so scary, because it, at least in my experience, it happens so fast. Like…
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: it's like you blink, and suddenly you're like, oh my god, I'm not okay. And then you get this social, like, call and response of people being like, you look..
Cat Polston: You look so great!
Charlie Moses: Haha yeah! And you're like, thanks, I'm dying!
Cat Polston: And that was for me, I mean, like, because having always been chubby and overweight, like, pretty much my whole life, I was getting a lot of compliments, like, oh wow, you're losing a lot of weight, you're looking really good, and I was like, this isn't my fault, like, I'm not… I'm not doing anything specific, but almost, like, the validation… because you're meeting some kind of societal expectation or standard, when really, yeah, it's just illness, and it's just, like… I don't actually necessarily want this. It's like, yes, I'm enjoying that I'm getting this benefit, but the reason or causation behind it is, like, not healthy at all, you know? Right. But it's like that society still values it more, because you're still just, like, meeting the standard, you know?
Charlie Moses: Right, right. Yeah, I know, it's like, as opposed to being like, cool, I'm extremely sick, and then people will be like, that doesn't matter, because you look good. Great, yeah. I'm like, no, we're not… we're not on the same page.
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: Oh, gosh. Well, and I also, you know, I want to talk about, kind of, your experience going into social work and going into housing, and coming at it from all of your experiential knowledge. And I think also then with that lens of chronic illness and disability being like, oh how do I support my clients, or support this community, or support my community in a way that's much more multifaceted than maybe some other housing programs, or that 101 housing knowledge kind of gives you? Like, what was your approach with all of your experience when going into that?
Cat Polston: Yeah, I mean, going into social work was very personal to me, I was sent away as a youth, to an institution, called Cross Creek Programs. There's a really good documentary on Netflix about it called The Program: Cons, Cults, and Kidnapping. So I was, I was a victim of trafficking into another state to be put into a program. When I got out of that program, I really took that experience and wanted to make something of it that was positive, so I wanted to give back. My experience, I mean, it really led me to being like, I need to seek therapy, like, actual therapy, not like, you know, program manipulative, abusive type therapy. But getting into therapy and actual therapy really is what motivated me to really start giving back in the way I wanted to specifically work with teens and youth, because I wanted to prevent teens and youth going to the same kind of programs that I went to from ever happening to anyone else in the future, because I felt like a lot of, you know, youth behavior, normal youth behavior, there's people out there that prey on that to be like, they're gonna end up dead in the street, you know? Which was very much the manipulation tactic that was used on my family to, you know, me just being a regular teenager and hanging out with my friends and experimenting ended up being labeled as troubled or, you know, that I was gonna lead to other, more significant issues.
So, really, teens and youth were my niche, and that's what I really… that's the demographic I really wanted to work with. And so I started working as a parent aide, so I was working with families who their children had been removed by DCS, and working to try to reunify. So I would do parenting classes using the Nurturing Parent Curriculum, which was an evidence-based model, which really is foundation in, you know, working with your children -- setting up safe boundaries for them to explore healthily -- you know, positive reinforcement and praise, and it kind of goes through all stages of life. So from really that, like, birth to 5, and then really the teen years, and how your relationship changes with your children as they age, and how to meet them where they're at in any kind of aspect. And that training was so phenomenal for me, and when I would teach parenting classes, I would really just see it click for the parents, too, because a lot of times, like, I always say, you know, parenting is one of the hardest jobs in the world, but there's no rulebook, or there's no playbook, there's nothing that comes with it… it’s… we just base our parenting based off of our parents -- how we were parented. So, it's like, oftentimes we don't have our own style, we're just perpetuating previous styles that we observed, or that happened with us. And so, with that, working with that demographic, you know, really trying to reunify families and build families back together and, like, a lot more positive and reinforced kind of family system. And I really felt like that, through that, it helped me kind of also reconcile a lot of the hurt and pain that I had. You know, like, seeing other people have those breakthroughs and stuff was so motivational for me. Like you know, even though I wasn't going to experience it myself, if I could prevent trauma or, like, additional trauma in any other families, like, that was really my motivation. So, with that, my experience is in that program, and then afterwards, you know, not being stable… stably housed, that’s what really was, like… housing was kind of… like, a no… like, no-nonsense. It was, like, a great transition for me, because I was like, alright, I've helped people and their kids. Now I need to help people with housing, because it was… that was my progression too, right? Like…
Charlie Moses: Yeah.
Cat Polston: You know, it was, like, I was getting stable, mentally, emotionally, I was getting stably housed, you know, and it was something that I really just wanted for other folks in my community, and I really wanted people to be able to be able to navigate the systems that I've had to navigate more easily, because it is so difficult. And so, like, really, the way that I approach social work is very trauma-informed and person-centered, and always meeting the client where they're at. Oftentimes, I think, you know, as professionals, we get caught up in, like, jargon and lingo and all of those things, and we forget that they don't know any of that. Like, this is their first time, and so even if this might be, like, my thousandth client, they still don't know anything. So it's like, I always have to make sure that I, like, take the time to, like, take a step back and, like, reintroduce all of these concepts to every single client, every single time. And so really making that transition, like, into government and public service kind of wasn't by, like, my own choice. I got laid off during the pandemic.
Charlie Moses: Uhuh.
Cat Polston: My program closed because it lost its funding, and so I was laid off, and I had been with them for almost 10 years, and so that was devastating, but with that, that came new motivation for me, because I was like, you know what? I'm gonna go work for the government now, and I'm going to make a change on the other side, and I'm not gonna cut programs and so with that, like, I found that my power is, like, not… obviously, like, I'm not the mover and shaker that I was hoping to be.
Charlie Moses: Right.
Cat Polston: But with that, I do… I have learned to be able to know what fights we can fight, and what policies we can advocate for, what programs we can advocate for, you know, and I always wanted to be the government worker who cared, so it's like… always making sure that I'm still doing those things that I learned from social work, like, why I think it was such a good and seamless transition for me is that it does come from that program experience. So, like, working with clients in direct care and learning how to take a step back and teach them things where they're at is the same thing with working with subrecipients. You know, because they don't understand federal rules, and they don't understand federal programs, and it's like… and I saw that myself, working at nonprofits. So then on the other hand, being like, okay, I need to be the one to teach them these things so that they can be better service providers for the community.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, I mean, I really wanted to ask, with your experience working in government, and I worked for years doing legislative policy, and so trying to really push some policies forward, or completely halt others… But I wanted to ask, you know, from your experience, and especially looking at it through a disability lens, what do you feel that people really misunderstand about how policy decisions actually show up in daily life, and where their importance really lies? Because I feel like a lot of people are like, I don't have to pay attention, I don't have to vote, life will be the same no matter what, we live under capitalism, imperialism, colonialism, all of these things, but, you know, what does that day-to-day minutiae look like? And then, especially through a disabled lens, how is it playing out? How is it affecting us?
Cat Polston: Oh, what a great question. The thing that bothers me the most is that people don't understand that policy dictates literally everything in their life. Like, it actually is so much bigger. It actually is all-encompassing. I think that, you know, especially when we talk about local level. Like, we can… a lot on the federal level, we can kind of ignore, you know, it dictates much larger kind of projects, or much larger kind of, like, scope. But local policy and local elections are so imperative. Like local policy is what's going to dictate everything about your life at any given time, on any given day. You know, like, where we decide to build schools, where we decide to have sidewalks, and if those sidewalks have to have ramps. Like, all of that is dictated in policy, and that's all dictated, essentially, like, on your local level. And so I wish, I wish that people knew how much, like, I… it bothers me when folks are like, I don't want to talk about politics. And it's like, well, then we literally can't talk about anything, because everything is political. You know, it's like, you know, who goes to what schools? Who builds whose housing? Like… you know, housing… where housing is built is all dictated in policy. You know, and it's like, if it is a federal project, it has to adhere to certain guidelines. Like, they're not allowed to build near a landfill, but private equity doesn't have to follow the same rules. So they're potentially exposing people to toxic waste and to toxicities that they don't all have to adhere by the same kind of rules and regulations, so it's like they can get away with a lot more. And so it's like, you know, if you're living next to a landfill, and then 20 years from then you get cancer, you know, who are you going to try to hold accountable? Like, because if you don't know that connection, even, that this private equity came in and was able to do that, you know? So it's like, everything, everything is political, everything is about policy. S it's like, if we had… if there was legislation that said it doesn't matter if you're private equity, you can't build next to a landfill, that could really save people's lives, improve their health outcomes exponentially, you know? So it's, like, a lot of what I think, especially with disability justice… You know, folks who are suffering from poor policy, pollution, environmental policies, which often have been ignored or, not really, like, essentially well-funded, right, directly impact most vulnerable populations. Youth and the elderly, and then also folks living with disabilities are always going to be our most vulnerable communities are always going to be the victim of poor policy creation.
Charlie Moses: Always.
Cat Polston: Yeah, no, I mean, it's…
Charlie Moses: Yeah, it's miserable. It's kind of, you know, it's like once you peel open that first layer of anything, and you realize that the people who are closest to the fire are the ones who have always been closest to the fire. Poor communities where they're like, oh, we're gonna put a landfill over here, or, you know, thinking about Cancer Alley running through parts of New Orleans, or, like big oil in parts of Houston, and just kind of the Gulf in general, and understanding that, you know, those were built there, and things happened, either through private equity, or through poor policy decisions, and usually a combination of both.
Cat Polston: Yeah, absolutely, like, the redlining, and even when we look at maps, like, so I'm from Phoenix, and I live in Tucson now, but in the industrial areas of Phoenix, that’s where like, communities were redlined into. So it's like directly related to poor health outcomes was because of forcing historically disenfranchised folks and historically marginalized communities into these areas that were known toxic sites for industrialization. Like, directly cause poor health outcomes, poverty, you know… being unsheltered, unemployment, all of those are… it is all systemic. And it's just like, you know, society treats it almost as, like, a moral failing, but it is a policy failure, right, towards policy design.
Charlie Moses: Right, well, and then there's also… there's so much emphasis on the individual of being like, well, now that you know this, why don't you just move? Being like, I don't…
Cat Polston: Not accessible.
Charlie Moses: Exactly, it's like…
Cat Polston: Like, I can't.
Charlie Moses: Just four generations of my family currently exist here, I don't know. And then also understanding that, you know, that's a form of… kind of sticking it to them as well, by being like, well, screw you for doing this to us, but we are staying put where our life and our family exist, and what we built it in.
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: Yeah. I mean, truly getting cozy with policy or understanding policy and the way that it gets carried out is a lot of power and a lot of intellect to be able to hold and carry forward. I have spent, like, years and years and years of my life just, like, writing policy testimonials, like, either for myself or other people, being like, narrative is one of the most powerful ways that you can sway policy makers. If you have a story that is directly impacted by the policy that is trying to be passed or not passed, and you can submit that, do it, because it holds so much weight.
Cat Polston: Yeah, and I just… I wish… I mean, it's almost… we know systemically, like, it is set up to be not accessible, right? Like, laws and bills and policies are all written by lawyers, and they're not accessible to people. And so it's like, I think it is so important to have folks that are willing to advocate to really break down those things into terms that folks can understand to meet the communities where they're at. You know, and it's like… to me, it always can… is very telling about local elections and local policies if they do actually want the community to be invested or know about it based on how it's written or how they're presenting the policy. But I just… I do wish that there would be more emphasis, you know, on local elections for folks to have access, to understand how it will impact them and how it will affect their life. It's just… it's… I wish…
Charlie Moses: I know, I know. Yeah, it's like, it's this two-fold thing where these systems and structures are immensely flawed. And then at the same time you can make some real tangible change at the local level, with your city commissioners, with your county commissioners, with your city council people, you know, whatever the term is in your particular municipality, it's so, so important to be like, I'm a squeaky wheel in the city of Portland who's gonna talk about all sorts of stuff to my city councilors and that…
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: it's an important role, while also at the same time being like, okay, what are some other types of structures that could exist that could better serve the people, that could better serve Black, Indigenous, disabled, trans, femme, queer, all of these folks that is not currently in place, and what does that look like? What do we do? Standing exactly where we're at right now?
Cat Polston: Go.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, it's like… It's like, we've got some ideas that we are attempting to put into place and to move forward. I do wonder, because, you know, thinking about how do we alter these systems, I want to ask you, kind of, where you see mutual aid, right, and not just, crowdfunding, which I feel like a lot of people think mutual aid is just crowdfunding, which it is not, it's shared skills, shared resources, all of these things, and then, like, mutual aid and public systems tension. Where do you see those things working together? And where do you see those things butting heads?
Cat Polston: My hope is always that they work together, but I do think systemically they are kind of built to not, and so I think, first and foremost, dismantling the kind of preconceived notion that they are separate things. What you said that I love, that I especially, in in times where there is lack of funding, and there is not any investment into communities, especially on the federal level, is interdependence and mutual aid, right? And so it's like, we need to depend on each other when we don't have anyone else to depend on, and your federal administration is demonstrating that they are not interested or motivated in funding you in any type of way, and that they are cutting funding. You know, working for the government, it's very… what… like, what I've been yelling about is that we do need to partner with mutual aid. I have been giving recommendations and feedbacks to nonprofits to work with each other. The only way that any type of aid, any type of support or programmings that we need and want in our communities will be sustained through this period is interdependence and mutual aid. So that interdependence piece, it's so important. I do think, very much how you said that, like, GoFundMe is the end-all-be-all of mutual aid, and it's actually not true… not at all. Because it doesn't always have to be monetary, you know, it can be any which thing -- if someone is in need of food assistance and they know how to sew… You know, let me repair your pants for some cans of food. You know, like really, when community comes together it can be great, and I think there is an investment in our power structures for it to not be that way. Like, there's a lot more investment in keeping folks divided and fearful of each other than there is to bring people together, but you know, we do have examples of during times of hardship, of people coming together, and everyone needs to kind of play their piece, and play to their own strengths, and come together to say, this is what I can offer, and then work through those things together as a community.
Charlie Moses: Amen. Yeah, no, I fully… I fully agree. It really is so much about understanding that we need each other. And when we're force-fed this idea that, I don't know, some scary amount of independence is the goal -- that you're just gonna be alone on an island with all of your money.
Cat Polston: Right?
Charlie Moses: All you need to get by is…
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: is terrifying, because we know it to be so untrue. We need people, we need one another. In fact, we don't just need one person, we need all sorts of people. Yeah. Like, it's…
Cat Polston: And everyone has different strengths, and I think because of power structure and eugenics and history, folks with disabilities oftentimes get neglected out of that conversation, but it's like, again, everyone has different strengths, like, if someone knows how to knit, you know, there's all your warmth and your beanies and your blankets and your sweaters when it starts getting cold, you know? Everyone… everyone has something to contribute. And I think that is also what power systems also don't want us to acknowledge, is that, right? Because it's like, even the billionaire class, they rely on us, you know, to do labor for them.
Charlie Moses: Yep.
Cat Polston: You know, so it's like that… we already are interconnected, but we just need to support, and we need to find that community connection.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, truly. I mean, it is so exhausting to know that the ongoing narrative around disabled people is that we're disposable, and that we're unproductive members of society who can't contribute, and as a result, need to be erased. And meanwhile, it's like, we’re over here doing all sorts of stuff.
Cat Polston: All the things --
Charlie Moses: Yeah.
Cat Polston: it can't be farther from the truth. I personally have always experienced that folks that are living with disabilities feel an even more innate need to contribute to community. And so it's like, I know some of the most hard workers are folks with disabilities, because it's like, they know that that connection is what's going to strengthen relationships and community, so it's like, they are the biggest contributors, you know?
Charlie Moses: Right, and that it doesn't necessarily look like capitalist productivity… this contribution. That it's not like, oh, we're contributing in the exact way that you're expecting everybody to contribute. It's like, no, we have a lot more to give in a lot of different ways than whatever this current baby structure of society is playing out.
Cat Polston: Yeah. It's capitalism.
Charlie Moses: Oh, I know, it… yeah, God yeah, what a ride. Corporate capitalism, what a ride. It is just… we’re really on it right now. We're really trying to find some alternatives to it. I mean, and that's thinking of different economic structures as well. I mean, things as simple as the gift economy or, like, the refusal economy… of being like, we refuse to do your labor. We refuse to be consumers of your goods. And within that economy, you know, the billionaire ruling class cannot exist, but… it's like just understanding these different ways that economics can look, where everybody gets to contribute, and everybody gets to have purpose and meaning simply for existing.
Cat Polston: Yeah.
Charlie Moses: Ugh. Yeah… You know, I wondered, too, like… within operating as a social worker, or operating as a civil servant, what have you had to kind of unlearn about professionalism, or productivity, or service delivery, especially as somebody who's disabled to, make it through the day in these settings?
Cat Polston: Yes, that's self-care. Self-care is absolutely pinnacle to social work, but I think even in corporate America I see burnout… at a rate in corporate America that's just as bad as service providers. But I do think that, I mean, really, in the past maybe decade, I've really seen a shift in social work to really uphold self-care and avoiding burnout, and reflective supervision to really support employees. And it kind of ebbs and flows, you know, sometimes things are very challenging, and so… or you're short-staffed, and so those things are always the first to go out the door. But it's really the only thing that's going to continue to actually get your clients met is to be able to take care of the individual. But, you know, you see in corporate America, it's always that grind, and they never talk about that self-care piece, and so it's like, you see corporations and folks that work in corporations, like, absolutely 100% burnt out, and compassion fatigued at probably the same rate as social workers, or similar, and it's like, you know, just because it's different work they don't rec… like, they think they don't need those same kind of things, you know?
So it's like, folks with disabilities working in corporate America just need the same amount of grace and care of reflective supervision and self-care that social workers do. Like, I really wish across the board that it was something that was more recognized and accepted. Like mental health days became a thing, you know, it's like it's not that I'm sick, I'm just not feeling it. And so it was like, I feel in human services, that kind of became more acceptable, but I really think it should be that people can just call in healthy, and just be like, I'm actually doing good today, but I just want to ride this high and that should be accepted too, you know? Or it's like, you know, I really think that it's important to just meet people where they're at, like, regardless if they are living with a disability or not, being disabled, it's a community that anyone can join at any time, right? It's like, you're one fall, or you're, like, one illness away from disability, and then it's oftentimes a community that we do end up joining naturally as our lives progress, right? Like, when mobility issues start to become a challenge, or mental capacity starts becoming a challenge in senior years, you know, folks are working longer, folks are working harder than really ever before, but we really need that grace of that self-care, of that ability to take time so that we avoid burnout, so that we avoid folks quitting in rage, or like, you know… the thing about capitalism is it's an ever demanding cog.
My whole thing, and I say all the time, and I know it's kind of, like, messed up, but it's like, if we're the cattle, like, at least treat your cattle well. You know, it's like, because, and really, in terms of cows, too, we know if they are fed premium grasses, and they get time to rest, and they have roaming time, they produce a better product, you know, so it's like, same thing with human beings. We should be able to be treated with dignity and respect, to be able to have time off to be sick, to have time off to grieve if we lose someone, to have time off if we have an injury or an illness, with no pressure or expectation to return, or, like, to just be able to have that rest period, you know? And it's like, we see in other countries they have that, right? Paid maternal leave, paid paternal leave, all of those things, you know, like, automatic weeks time off when you're sick, like, it's an investment that companies need to make in their employees, and I think America has really sold the lie of grinding culture, so it's like, you know, but when we're grinding ourselves to nothing, and then we become compassion fatigued, and we come fatigued in general, or we're experiencing burnout the recovery time is even harder for that, whether you're able-bodied or not, you know?
So it's like… giving that grace, and like, I really wish that across the workforce in general, we could have better policy, right? Like, ideally a 4-day work week is full-time, so that people can have more time to rest and be with their families, experience joy. They will be more productive workers, and they will feel better at the end of the day, and they will be able to produce a better product, you know?
Charlie Moses: Yeah, absolutely, and it's like, you know… Thinking about it in a really, really long time frame, why not the 3-day work week? Why not the 2-day work week? Why not getting to a place where what we consider and understand to be work or labor is actually just the very things that are necessary for community and survival and care and taking care of the Earth, and the things that we are taking from it -- that it's actually mutual and we give back to it. Like, when does productivity and labor turn itself back into, how are we doing things in a mutual way, both with one another and with the planet, with everything living? Because I agree that, you know, the co-opting of self-care and the corporatization of self-care, where it's just then resold to you as consumable goods….
Cat Polston: Yes.
Charlie Moses: It's just, you know, it's tiring, and we can see, you know, we see what they're doing, like, we know… we can see it, it's pretty dang transparent at this point, but it's like, okay, taking a stand and actually practicing self-care that is true to you, which can look like things like a lot of rest. Like, really taking a lot of rest. Or, like, standing outside in nature and just taking it in. Sitting in nature and just taking it in. Like, whatever those self-care practices look like, that we actually are given the time and space to do them, and then if we're not given the time and space to do that, then how do we shift things and take it because we need it? Like, truly. Otherwise you’re burning out your laborers, and then what are you gonna do when there's nobody left to do your dirty work in the end?
Cat Polston: And I feel like, I mean, the COVID-19 pandemic was really telling for that, like, with work and how work could be done. And it was just so sad to me that it was, like, then all these return to office orders, because it's like, we did see during that time period that the lack of cars on the roads, the lack of industrialization, like, constant… that our world started repairing itself so quickly, and like, you know…
Charlie Moses: Yeah.
Cat Polston: people were able to have so much better of a work-life balance when they were able to work from home and fully remote. Work itself was more accessible for folks, so folks who are not able to go to an office, or that struggle with mobility, right, absolutely have the capacity to work from home. But then it was, like, with that period where it was this grace, and almost like corporate America, like, realizing that this was needed and wanted in the workforce, and that they had all these studies that demonstrated that productivity doesn't actually get any worse, and it's, like, actually, in fact, more productive when people… and it was, like, we still have to be in oppressive structure, so return to the office.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, they're like, sorry, we're not oppressing you enough, we realized. I know this all seems good, but you're just not oppressed enough.
Cat Polston: Yeah, and I want to be able to talk to you whenever I want to at the water fountain, and we're spending a lot of money on rent for this building, you know.
Charlie Moses: Oh, my God.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, no, I… it's like…
Charlie Moses: Heaven forbid. Yeah. Well, I wanna… again, these hours, they just fly by!
Cat Polston: Oh, no, yeah.
Charlie Moses: I want to wrap up by asking the final question that I like to ask all of our guests, which is, you know, to bring in that future thinking. When you imagine
Charlie Moses: liberatory, disabled futures, to you, what do they feel like? What do they look like? What do they sound like? And where do you already see maybe some little glimpses of them?
Cat Polston: I think first and foremost, housing for all. I think it is a basic need. It is something that people need in order to feel safe and secure, and to be able to start focusing on other aspects of their life. So I think that housing needs to be recognized 100% as a human right, and provided as a basic necessity. I mean, from there, it's like, already I know that's like, wow, that's radical, but already from there, like, food, water, anything that a human being needs to be able to be sustained, just basically in life -- I personally am a proponent for it being provided. There's ways to do it with, like, taxation, but I think that there needs to be an investment in just caring for people for where they're at and what their ability is. There are people who have, you know, that are living with disabilities that aren't able to work full-time, so it's like not asking them to be able to contribute to society based on their capacity, and the rest of society being okay with that, and understanding that it's not a moral failure, that it's something that they need in order to contribute, you know? So it's like, everyone has something to offer, and so it's like allowing folks to be able to have the time, space, security, and safety to be able to offer that. And I would really love if we didn't have billionaires. I would really love reinvestment into our communities. I would really love to see folks being able to participate freely when they can, when they want to, and no pressure for it, like… anytime that I kind of think of this, I always think of Indigenous communities -- that cohabitation, interdependence, and community care, you know… it's like folks who can do the hunting will do the hunting, folks who can do the gathering will do the gathering, if you can't do any of that, you can sing, you know?
Charlie Moses: Yeah.
Cat Polston: Like, just showing up for community, meeting people where they're at, I think is really my ideal society.
Charlie Moses: Yeah, wonderful. Agreed. That would just… I feel like we can get there, and I feel like we are getting there, and that there are definitely enough people on board to make it happen.
Cat Polston: For sure.
Charlie Moses: Well, Kat, thank you so much!
Cat Polston: Thank you!
Charlie Moses: Wonderful talking with you, and getting to know you more, and learning about your life, and your history, and all of it. I just… I'm so grateful for you -- so thank you.
Cat Polston: Well, mutual… mutual respect and admiration. I feel so blessed and honored to be a part of this.
Charlie Moses: Thanks so much. Yeah, we're glad to have you! Alright, well, I'll talk to you soon, and I hope you have a really good rest of your night.
Cat Polston: You too.
Charlie Moses: Alright.
Cat Polston: Bye.
Charlie Moses: Oh my gosh. Well, that was just such a rich and wonderful conversation. Kat is truly incredible. Like, really, really. I mean, the way she thinks about systems and care and responsibility, like, all of these things really just remind me that disabled knowledge, really, truly is world-building knowledge. Like, time and time again, it is just what it is. And our communities, these communities, our disabled communities especially, have been imagining and building these many different ways that we can support one another beyond these current existing systems, that clearly were not designed for us, and we are trying to make them better.
Thank you all so much for listening to The Future is Sick. This podcast is an experiment in sick time, storytelling, and imagining futures together. If you enjoyed this episode, it really helps to share it, to follow the show, and to invite others into the conversation as well. You can find transcripts and more episodes at sickfuturescollective.org slash podcast, and until next time, take care, rest when you need to, and remember, the future is sick.